ACLU sues Jackson-Reed

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:It is, indeed, the complexity and sensitivities around this issue/film that is why the school and principal were justified in wanting to be thoughtful and deliberate before letting the students show the film. In fact, it would be totally irresponsible for a school to rubberstamp any film on this topic without viewing it and considering how it would impact the student body and figuring out how the group could go forward to stage a viewing in a safe way.

How long do you believe this process should take? Approximately to the end of the school year? The video is 50 minutes long. The school could deliberate over the course of an afternoon.

[Anonymous]

The thing about the title being problematic is overdone. As Jeff noted, the title is working off the occupation of Gaza. And, yes, there has been a strong pro-Israel lobby in the US for decades. If it is not anti-semitic to say that.

If it is unfair to call it the pro-Israel lobby "the Jewish lobby" without clarifying that many Jews have differing perspectives on Israel, that's accurate but, well, picky. Generalizations are made about people everyday, all.the.time. Southerners sound dumb, VCs are all lax bros, private school kids are entitled, DC government is inept, federal workers are overpaid, Gazans are terrorists, etc etc etc.

Describing something without footnoting the accuracy thereof (80%, 40%, 60%) is normal to functioning in the everyday world. Learning to be wise enough and analytical enough to recognize overstatement and to consider when it's misleading is a critical part of education.

But if nothing can be discussed, then little is learned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The movie they wanted to show, Occupation of the American Mind, is very anti-semitic. It is narrated by Roger Waters who now freely wears Nazi uniforms to his concerts.

This is disturbing. How did we get here?

I just took the time to watch the video that the students want to show. You can watch it yourself here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jKRwdsq-As

It is only 49 minutes long.

Let me clear up some misconceptions. The movie is not anti-Semitic, let along "very" anti-Semitic. Does it portray the Israeli government's point of view? Of course not. Many supporters of Israel will object to parts of its content. I suspect that even some supporters of the Palestinians will quibble about parts. That's the nature of the conflict. But it is a very solid and accurate discussion of Israel's occupation and the ways in which US public opinion has been influenced.

Roger Waters has clearly overstepped the bounds of what I personally consider appropriate and can legitimately be accused of antisemitism. However, he has very little to do with this film. Most of the movie is not, in fact, narrated. Rather various speakers talk for themselves.

There is no mention of the "Jewish lobby" as stated earlier in this thread. The harshest critic of the pro-Israel lobby is a former AIPAC staffer. The movie accurately points out that most American Jews don't support Israel's hardline policies and that many of Israel's US supporters are not Jewish. One speaker explicitly said that Israel has not brainwashed Americans. While pro-Israel political influence and the impact of pro-Israel financial contributions are described, the point is made that none of the pro-Israel political activities are unusual. This actually rejects common anti-Semitic tropes about cabals of Jews secretly controlling Americans.

Ironically, toward the end of the video there is a discussion about the need to confront student activists who are not as supportive of Israel as are older Americans. In fact, many of the tactics that Israel's supporters are accused by the film of using are actually demonstrated in this thread.

Anyone interested in this discussion should take the time to watch the video and come to their own conclusions. For my part, I see no reason to prevent this film from being presented at school.

Thank you for the detailed review.

Jeff left a LOT out - namely the complete denial that Hamas is anti-semitic.

Obviously any 50 minute video about the Israel-Palestine conflict is going to leave a lot out. As I said in my review, I expect that even Palestinians would quibble about things. More than likely they would similarly argue that important aspects were ignored. But, to be clear, the film did not deny that Hamas is anti-Semitic and your accusation is untrue. Rather, the film did not address that topic. That may be a legitimate complaint, but that is not the complaint that you have articulated.

The video did describe Hamas as both a religious and political movement and described some of the terrorist events in which it had been involved.

Stop lying. The film goes into detail excusing the anti-semitic Hamas charter. And obviously just leaving that part out is a huge distortion.

I’m not against showing the doc at school but just like with Maus, the school is justified in taking steps to prevent disruption and harassment.

The version of the video that I watched, which is the version the students want to present at school, does not do that. So it is actually you who is lying and I invite everyone to view the film themselves and confirm which of us is being truthful.

I am not sure why you are comparing books that are assigned reading to a film being presented as a voluntary activity during non-classroom hours. No students are being assigned to watch the video.

Directly from the transcript - claims thay the Hamas charter calling for the slaughter of the Jews is meaningless and just exploited for propaganda:

“And Luntz goes onto say that one of the most effective ways to make the conflict about terrorism is to refer to an obscure political document written in 1988 by a small group of ideologues, the Hamas Charter, that calls for the destruction of Israel. Even though the Hamas leadership effectively disowned the Charter a long time ago, it’s been PR gold for Israel. Luntz’s research discovered that when Americans hear the words of the Charter, Israel goes from bully to victim, and sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians dissipates. So, he says, Don’t just quote it, read it -- out loud -- again and again. And his advice has been taken up – often hysterically – by Israel’s advocates.”

https://www.mediaed.org/transcripts/The-Occupation-Of-The-American-Mind-Transcript.pdf

Just *imagine* if anything CLOSE to that was said about any other ethnic/racial group.

I just confirmed that that section is not included in the abridged version that the students want to present. You can go to 16:46 of the video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jKRwdsq-As

to conform for yourself. It would be really helpful for this discussion if you would just watch the video yourself so that I would not have to keep correcting your misinformation.

I will also note, however, that the advice that Luntz is quoted as offering as been followed assiduously. You will not find a single discussion here about Hamas in which its charter is not brought up. So, I am not sure why you find this objectionable.

Oh so you’re doubling down on the “anti-semitism is not real - it’s just hasbara propaganda.” Nice.

dp: I think you are looking for gotchas rather than acknowledging the complexities of the situation.

No, I’m not. The purpose of the documentary is to make students believe that Israel has no legitimate security concerns, Hamas is not antisemitic, and it’s all a massive Israeli mind-control effort to take over America.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The thing about the title being problematic is overdone. As Jeff noted, the title is working off the occupation of Gaza. And, yes, there has been a strong pro-Israel lobby in the US for decades. If it is not anti-semitic to say that.

If it is unfair to call it the pro-Israel lobby "the Jewish lobby" without clarifying that many Jews have differing perspectives on Israel, that's accurate but, well, picky. Generalizations are made about people everyday, all.the.time. Southerners sound dumb, VCs are all lax bros, private school kids are entitled, DC government is inept, federal workers are overpaid, Gazans are terrorists, etc etc etc.

Describing something without footnoting the accuracy thereof (80%, 40%, 60%) is normal to functioning in the everyday world. Learning to be wise enough and analytical enough to recognize overstatement and to consider when it's misleading is a critical part of education.

But if nothing can be discussed, then little is learned.

Try again. There is ZERO way that any DCPS school would allow a film that came thisclose to a well-known racist stereotype to be screened. I am all for education and open dialogue but this is an extremely biased piece of, yes, propaganda that is affirmatively pro-Hamas (still a US designated terror group). All that said I believe in free speech and that the doc could be screened, but there would have to be a chance for others to put it into context.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The thing about the title being problematic is overdone. As Jeff noted, the title is working off the occupation of Gaza. And, yes, there has been a strong pro-Israel lobby in the US for decades. If it is not anti-semitic to say that.

If it is unfair to call it the pro-Israel lobby "the Jewish lobby" without clarifying that many Jews have differing perspectives on Israel, that's accurate but, well, picky. Generalizations are made about people everyday, all.the.time. Southerners sound dumb, VCs are all lax bros, private school kids are entitled, DC government is inept, federal workers are overpaid, Gazans are terrorists, etc etc etc.

Describing something without footnoting the accuracy thereof (80%, 40%, 60%) is normal to functioning in the everyday world. Learning to be wise enough and analytical enough to recognize overstatement and to consider when it's misleading is a critical part of education.

But if nothing can be discussed, then little is learned.

Try again. There is ZERO way that any DCPS school would allow a film that came thisclose to a well-known racist stereotype to be screened. I am all for education and open dialogue but this is an extremely biased piece of, yes, propaganda that is affirmatively pro-Hamas (still a US designated terror group). All that said I believe in free speech and that the doc could be screened, but there would have to be a chance for others to put it into context.

Huh. What about a speaker who asks ES students to describe a racist family member? This is not near the same level.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The movie they wanted to show, Occupation of the American Mind, is very anti-semitic. It is narrated by Roger Waters who now freely wears Nazi uniforms to his concerts.

This is disturbing. How did we get here?

I just took the time to watch the video that the students want to show. You can watch it yourself here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jKRwdsq-As

It is only 49 minutes long.

Let me clear up some misconceptions. The movie is not anti-Semitic, let along "very" anti-Semitic. Does it portray the Israeli government's point of view? Of course not. Many supporters of Israel will object to parts of its content. I suspect that even some supporters of the Palestinians will quibble about parts. That's the nature of the conflict. But it is a very solid and accurate discussion of Israel's occupation and the ways in which US public opinion has been influenced.

Roger Waters has clearly overstepped the bounds of what I personally consider appropriate and can legitimately be accused of antisemitism. However, he has very little to do with this film. Most of the movie is not, in fact, narrated. Rather various speakers talk for themselves.

There is no mention of the "Jewish lobby" as stated earlier in this thread. The harshest critic of the pro-Israel lobby is a former AIPAC staffer. The movie accurately points out that most American Jews don't support Israel's hardline policies and that many of Israel's US supporters are not Jewish. One speaker explicitly said that Israel has not brainwashed Americans. While pro-Israel political influence and the impact of pro-Israel financial contributions are described, the point is made that none of the pro-Israel political activities are unusual. This actually rejects common anti-Semitic tropes about cabals of Jews secretly controlling Americans.

Ironically, toward the end of the video there is a discussion about the need to confront student activists who are not as supportive of Israel as are older Americans. In fact, many of the tactics that Israel's supporters are accused by the film of using are actually demonstrated in this thread.

Anyone interested in this discussion should take the time to watch the video and come to their own conclusions. For my part, I see no reason to prevent this film from being presented at school.

Thank you for the detailed review.

Jeff left a LOT out - namely the complete denial that Hamas is anti-semitic.

Obviously any 50 minute video about the Israel-Palestine conflict is going to leave a lot out. As I said in my review, I expect that even Palestinians would quibble about things. More than likely they would similarly argue that important aspects were ignored. But, to be clear, the film did not deny that Hamas is anti-Semitic and your accusation is untrue. Rather, the film did not address that topic. That may be a legitimate complaint, but that is not the complaint that you have articulated.

The video did describe Hamas as both a religious and political movement and described some of the terrorist events in which it had been involved.

Stop lying. The film goes into detail excusing the anti-semitic Hamas charter. And obviously just leaving that part out is a huge distortion.

I’m not against showing the doc at school but just like with Maus, the school is justified in taking steps to prevent disruption and harassment.

The version of the video that I watched, which is the version the students want to present at school, does not do that. So it is actually you who is lying and I invite everyone to view the film themselves and confirm which of us is being truthful.

I am not sure why you are comparing books that are assigned reading to a film being presented as a voluntary activity during non-classroom hours. No students are being assigned to watch the video.

Directly from the transcript - claims thay the Hamas charter calling for the slaughter of the Jews is meaningless and just exploited for propaganda:

“And Luntz goes onto say that one of the most effective ways to make the conflict about terrorism is to refer to an obscure political document written in 1988 by a small group of ideologues, the Hamas Charter, that calls for the destruction of Israel. Even though the Hamas leadership effectively disowned the Charter a long time ago, it’s been PR gold for Israel. Luntz’s research discovered that when Americans hear the words of the Charter, Israel goes from bully to victim, and sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians dissipates. So, he says, Don’t just quote it, read it -- out loud -- again and again. And his advice has been taken up – often hysterically – by Israel’s advocates.”

https://www.mediaed.org/transcripts/The-Occupation-Of-The-American-Mind-Transcript.pdf

Just *imagine* if anything CLOSE to that was said about any other ethnic/racial group.

I just confirmed that that section is not included in the abridged version that the students want to present. You can go to 16:46 of the video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jKRwdsq-As

to conform for yourself. It would be really helpful for this discussion if you would just watch the video yourself so that I would not have to keep correcting your misinformation.

I will also note, however, that the advice that Luntz is quoted as offering as been followed assiduously. You will not find a single discussion here about Hamas in which its charter is not brought up. So, I am not sure why you find this objectionable.

Oh so you’re doubling down on the “anti-semitism is not real - it’s just hasbara propaganda.” Nice.

dp: I think you are looking for gotchas rather than acknowledging the complexities of the situation.

No, I’m not. The purpose of the documentary is to make students believe that Israel has no legitimate security concerns, Hamas is not antisemitic, and it’s all a massive Israeli mind-control effort to take over America.

This is completely inaccurate and, unfortunately, very typical of Israel's supporters. The poster is either outright lying or has not viewed the video.

I will say for the third time that the film explicitly denies that there is any brainwashing. The video does not suggest that Israel does not have legitimate security concerns, but rather argues that those concerns are frequently exaggerated and put above all other concerns (such as the security concerns of Palestinians). The video hardly discusses Hamas because Hamas is not the point of the video. Rather, the focus of the video is on pro-Israel efforts to influence American thinking about the conflict. We are seeing those efforts in this very thread, following the script outlined in the video almost perfectly.

The video is an effective illustration of how the narrative about the Israel-Palestine conflict is influenced. Because of that effectiveness, there is an effort to suppress it. The tactic used to suppress it is not legitimate criticism (of which some could certainly be made) but rather the tried and true tactic of labeling anything with which the pro-Israel crowd is uncomfortable as anti-Semitic.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The thing about the title being problematic is overdone. As Jeff noted, the title is working off the occupation of Gaza. And, yes, there has been a strong pro-Israel lobby in the US for decades. If it is not anti-semitic to say that.

If it is unfair to call it the pro-Israel lobby "the Jewish lobby" without clarifying that many Jews have differing perspectives on Israel, that's accurate but, well, picky. Generalizations are made about people everyday, all.the.time. Southerners sound dumb, VCs are all lax bros, private school kids are entitled, DC government is inept, federal workers are overpaid, Gazans are terrorists, etc etc etc.

Describing something without footnoting the accuracy thereof (80%, 40%, 60%) is normal to functioning in the everyday world. Learning to be wise enough and analytical enough to recognize overstatement and to consider when it's misleading is a critical part of education.

But if nothing can be discussed, then little is learned.

Try again. There is ZERO way that any DCPS school would allow a film that came thisclose to a well-known racist stereotype to be screened. I am all for education and open dialogue but this is an extremely biased piece of, yes, propaganda that is affirmatively pro-Hamas (still a US designated terror group). All that said I believe in free speech and that the doc could be screened, but there would have to be a chance for others to put it into context.

You have not watched the video. As such, you are not describing it accurately. Please watch the video and then provide your honest feedback. This is not an honest portrayal of the video.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:The thing about the title being problematic is overdone. As Jeff noted, the title is working off the occupation of Gaza. And, yes, there has been a strong pro-Israel lobby in the US for decades. If it is not anti-semitic to say that.

If it is unfair to call it the pro-Israel lobby "the Jewish lobby" without clarifying that many Jews have differing perspectives on Israel, that's accurate but, well, picky. Generalizations are made about people everyday, all.the.time. Southerners sound dumb, VCs are all lax bros, private school kids are entitled, DC government is inept, federal workers are overpaid, Gazans are terrorists, etc etc etc.

Describing something without footnoting the accuracy thereof (80%, 40%, 60%) is normal to functioning in the everyday world. Learning to be wise enough and analytical enough to recognize overstatement and to consider when it's misleading is a critical part of education.

But if nothing can be discussed, then little is learned.

The video does not use the phrase "the Jewish lobby". That was a misstatement made earlier in this thread. The most vocal critic in the video of pro-Israel lobbying is a former AIPAC employee who is, of course, himself Jewish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The movie they wanted to show, Occupation of the American Mind, is very anti-semitic. It is narrated by Roger Waters who now freely wears Nazi uniforms to his concerts.

This is disturbing. How did we get here?

I just took the time to watch the video that the students want to show. You can watch it yourself here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jKRwdsq-As

It is only 49 minutes long.

Let me clear up some misconceptions. The movie is not anti-Semitic, let along "very" anti-Semitic. Does it portray the Israeli government's point of view? Of course not. Many supporters of Israel will object to parts of its content. I suspect that even some supporters of the Palestinians will quibble about parts. That's the nature of the conflict. But it is a very solid and accurate discussion of Israel's occupation and the ways in which US public opinion has been influenced.

Roger Waters has clearly overstepped the bounds of what I personally consider appropriate and can legitimately be accused of antisemitism. However, he has very little to do with this film. Most of the movie is not, in fact, narrated. Rather various speakers talk for themselves.

There is no mention of the "Jewish lobby" as stated earlier in this thread. The harshest critic of the pro-Israel lobby is a former AIPAC staffer. The movie accurately points out that most American Jews don't support Israel's hardline policies and that many of Israel's US supporters are not Jewish. One speaker explicitly said that Israel has not brainwashed Americans. While pro-Israel political influence and the impact of pro-Israel financial contributions are described, the point is made that none of the pro-Israel political activities are unusual. This actually rejects common anti-Semitic tropes about cabals of Jews secretly controlling Americans.

Ironically, toward the end of the video there is a discussion about the need to confront student activists who are not as supportive of Israel as are older Americans. In fact, many of the tactics that Israel's supporters are accused by the film of using are actually demonstrated in this thread.

Anyone interested in this discussion should take the time to watch the video and come to their own conclusions. For my part, I see no reason to prevent this film from being presented at school.

Thank you for the detailed review.

Jeff left a LOT out - namely the complete denial that Hamas is anti-semitic.

Obviously any 50 minute video about the Israel-Palestine conflict is going to leave a lot out. As I said in my review, I expect that even Palestinians would quibble about things. More than likely they would similarly argue that important aspects were ignored. But, to be clear, the film did not deny that Hamas is anti-Semitic and your accusation is untrue. Rather, the film did not address that topic. That may be a legitimate complaint, but that is not the complaint that you have articulated.

The video did describe Hamas as both a religious and political movement and described some of the terrorist events in which it had been involved.

Stop lying. The film goes into detail excusing the anti-semitic Hamas charter. And obviously just leaving that part out is a huge distortion.

I’m not against showing the doc at school but just like with Maus, the school is justified in taking steps to prevent disruption and harassment.

The version of the video that I watched, which is the version the students want to present at school, does not do that. So it is actually you who is lying and I invite everyone to view the film themselves and confirm which of us is being truthful.

I am not sure why you are comparing books that are assigned reading to a film being presented as a voluntary activity during non-classroom hours. No students are being assigned to watch the video.

Directly from the transcript - claims thay the Hamas charter calling for the slaughter of the Jews is meaningless and just exploited for propaganda:

“And Luntz goes onto say that one of the most effective ways to make the conflict about terrorism is to refer to an obscure political document written in 1988 by a small group of ideologues, the Hamas Charter, that calls for the destruction of Israel. Even though the Hamas leadership effectively disowned the Charter a long time ago, it’s been PR gold for Israel. Luntz’s research discovered that when Americans hear the words of the Charter, Israel goes from bully to victim, and sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians dissipates. So, he says, Don’t just quote it, read it -- out loud -- again and again. And his advice has been taken up – often hysterically – by Israel’s advocates.”

https://www.mediaed.org/transcripts/The-Occupation-Of-The-American-Mind-Transcript.pdf

Just *imagine* if anything CLOSE to that was said about any other ethnic/racial group.

I just confirmed that that section is not included in the abridged version that the students want to present. You can go to 16:46 of the video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jKRwdsq-As

to conform for yourself. It would be really helpful for this discussion if you would just watch the video yourself so that I would not have to keep correcting your misinformation.

I will also note, however, that the advice that Luntz is quoted as offering as been followed assiduously. You will not find a single discussion here about Hamas in which its charter is not brought up. So, I am not sure why you find this objectionable.

Oh so you’re doubling down on the “anti-semitism is not real - it’s just hasbara propaganda.” Nice.

dp: I think you are looking for gotchas rather than acknowledging the complexities of the situation.

No, I’m not. The purpose of the documentary is to make students believe that Israel has no legitimate security concerns, Hamas is not antisemitic, and it’s all a massive Israeli mind-control effort to take over America.

It's a little insulting to J-R students tobthink that a documentary could "make" students believe such simplistic hyperbole.

The documentary having that much power would--ironically enough--be some serious mind-control.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The movie they wanted to show, Occupation of the American Mind, is very anti-semitic. It is narrated by Roger Waters who now freely wears Nazi uniforms to his concerts.

This is disturbing. How did we get here?

I just took the time to watch the video that the students want to show. You can watch it yourself here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jKRwdsq-As

It is only 49 minutes long.

Let me clear up some misconceptions. The movie is not anti-Semitic, let along "very" anti-Semitic. Does it portray the Israeli government's point of view? Of course not. Many supporters of Israel will object to parts of its content. I suspect that even some supporters of the Palestinians will quibble about parts. That's the nature of the conflict. But it is a very solid and accurate discussion of Israel's occupation and the ways in which US public opinion has been influenced.

Roger Waters has clearly overstepped the bounds of what I personally consider appropriate and can legitimately be accused of antisemitism. However, he has very little to do with this film. Most of the movie is not, in fact, narrated. Rather various speakers talk for themselves.

There is no mention of the "Jewish lobby" as stated earlier in this thread. The harshest critic of the pro-Israel lobby is a former AIPAC staffer. The movie accurately points out that most American Jews don't support Israel's hardline policies and that many of Israel's US supporters are not Jewish. One speaker explicitly said that Israel has not brainwashed Americans. While pro-Israel political influence and the impact of pro-Israel financial contributions are described, the point is made that none of the pro-Israel political activities are unusual. This actually rejects common anti-Semitic tropes about cabals of Jews secretly controlling Americans.

Ironically, toward the end of the video there is a discussion about the need to confront student activists who are not as supportive of Israel as are older Americans. In fact, many of the tactics that Israel's supporters are accused by the film of using are actually demonstrated in this thread.

Anyone interested in this discussion should take the time to watch the video and come to their own conclusions. For my part, I see no reason to prevent this film from being presented at school.

Thank you for the detailed review.

Jeff left a LOT out - namely the complete denial that Hamas is anti-semitic.

Obviously any 50 minute video about the Israel-Palestine conflict is going to leave a lot out. As I said in my review, I expect that even Palestinians would quibble about things. More than likely they would similarly argue that important aspects were ignored. But, to be clear, the film did not deny that Hamas is anti-Semitic and your accusation is untrue. Rather, the film did not address that topic. That may be a legitimate complaint, but that is not the complaint that you have articulated.

The video did describe Hamas as both a religious and political movement and described some of the terrorist events in which it had been involved.

Stop lying. The film goes into detail excusing the anti-semitic Hamas charter. And obviously just leaving that part out is a huge distortion.

I’m not against showing the doc at school but just like with Maus, the school is justified in taking steps to prevent disruption and harassment.

The version of the video that I watched, which is the version the students want to present at school, does not do that. So it is actually you who is lying and I invite everyone to view the film themselves and confirm which of us is being truthful.

I am not sure why you are comparing books that are assigned reading to a film being presented as a voluntary activity during non-classroom hours. No students are being assigned to watch the video.

Directly from the transcript - claims thay the Hamas charter calling for the slaughter of the Jews is meaningless and just exploited for propaganda:

“And Luntz goes onto say that one of the most effective ways to make the conflict about terrorism is to refer to an obscure political document written in 1988 by a small group of ideologues, the Hamas Charter, that calls for the destruction of Israel. Even though the Hamas leadership effectively disowned the Charter a long time ago, it’s been PR gold for Israel. Luntz’s research discovered that when Americans hear the words of the Charter, Israel goes from bully to victim, and sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians dissipates. So, he says, Don’t just quote it, read it -- out loud -- again and again. And his advice has been taken up – often hysterically – by Israel’s advocates.”

https://www.mediaed.org/transcripts/The-Occupation-Of-The-American-Mind-Transcript.pdf

Just *imagine* if anything CLOSE to that was said about any other ethnic/racial group.

I just confirmed that that section is not included in the abridged version that the students want to present. You can go to 16:46 of the video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jKRwdsq-As

to conform for yourself. It would be really helpful for this discussion if you would just watch the video yourself so that I would not have to keep correcting your misinformation.

I will also note, however, that the advice that Luntz is quoted as offering as been followed assiduously. You will not find a single discussion here about Hamas in which its charter is not brought up. So, I am not sure why you find this objectionable.

Oh so you’re doubling down on the “anti-semitism is not real - it’s just hasbara propaganda.” Nice.

dp: I think you are looking for gotchas rather than acknowledging the complexities of the situation.

No, I’m not. The purpose of the documentary is to make students believe that Israel has no legitimate security concerns, Hamas is not antisemitic, and it’s all a massive Israeli mind-control effort to take over America.

This is completely inaccurate and, unfortunately, very typical of Israel's supporters. The poster is either outright lying or has not viewed the video.

I will say for the third time that the film explicitly denies that there is any brainwashing. The video does not suggest that Israel does not have legitimate security concerns, but rather argues that those concerns are frequently exaggerated and put above all other concerns (such as the security concerns of Palestinians). The video hardly discusses Hamas because Hamas is not the point of the video. Rather, the focus of the video is on pro-Israel efforts to influence American thinking about the conflict. We are seeing those efforts in this very thread, following the script outlined in the video almost perfectly.

The video is an effective illustration of how the narrative about the Israel-Palestine conflict is influenced. Because of that effectiveness, there is an effort to suppress it. The tactic used to suppress it is not legitimate criticism (of which some could certainly be made) but rather the tried and true tactic of labeling anything with which the pro-Israel crowd is uncomfortable as anti-Semitic.

Absolutely anything I say you’ll just accuse me of being hasbara.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The movie they wanted to show, Occupation of the American Mind, is very anti-semitic. It is narrated by Roger Waters who now freely wears Nazi uniforms to his concerts.

This is disturbing. How did we get here?

I just took the time to watch the video that the students want to show. You can watch it yourself here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jKRwdsq-As

It is only 49 minutes long.

Let me clear up some misconceptions. The movie is not anti-Semitic, let along "very" anti-Semitic. Does it portray the Israeli government's point of view? Of course not. Many supporters of Israel will object to parts of its content. I suspect that even some supporters of the Palestinians will quibble about parts. That's the nature of the conflict. But it is a very solid and accurate discussion of Israel's occupation and the ways in which US public opinion has been influenced.

Roger Waters has clearly overstepped the bounds of what I personally consider appropriate and can legitimately be accused of antisemitism. However, he has very little to do with this film. Most of the movie is not, in fact, narrated. Rather various speakers talk for themselves.

There is no mention of the "Jewish lobby" as stated earlier in this thread. The harshest critic of the pro-Israel lobby is a former AIPAC staffer. The movie accurately points out that most American Jews don't support Israel's hardline policies and that many of Israel's US supporters are not Jewish. One speaker explicitly said that Israel has not brainwashed Americans. While pro-Israel political influence and the impact of pro-Israel financial contributions are described, the point is made that none of the pro-Israel political activities are unusual. This actually rejects common anti-Semitic tropes about cabals of Jews secretly controlling Americans.

Ironically, toward the end of the video there is a discussion about the need to confront student activists who are not as supportive of Israel as are older Americans. In fact, many of the tactics that Israel's supporters are accused by the film of using are actually demonstrated in this thread.

Anyone interested in this discussion should take the time to watch the video and come to their own conclusions. For my part, I see no reason to prevent this film from being presented at school.

Thank you for the detailed review.

Jeff left a LOT out - namely the complete denial that Hamas is anti-semitic.

Obviously any 50 minute video about the Israel-Palestine conflict is going to leave a lot out. As I said in my review, I expect that even Palestinians would quibble about things. More than likely they would similarly argue that important aspects were ignored. But, to be clear, the film did not deny that Hamas is anti-Semitic and your accusation is untrue. Rather, the film did not address that topic. That may be a legitimate complaint, but that is not the complaint that you have articulated.

The video did describe Hamas as both a religious and political movement and described some of the terrorist events in which it had been involved.

Stop lying. The film goes into detail excusing the anti-semitic Hamas charter. And obviously just leaving that part out is a huge distortion.

I’m not against showing the doc at school but just like with Maus, the school is justified in taking steps to prevent disruption and harassment.

The version of the video that I watched, which is the version the students want to present at school, does not do that. So it is actually you who is lying and I invite everyone to view the film themselves and confirm which of us is being truthful.

I am not sure why you are comparing books that are assigned reading to a film being presented as a voluntary activity during non-classroom hours. No students are being assigned to watch the video.

Directly from the transcript - claims thay the Hamas charter calling for the slaughter of the Jews is meaningless and just exploited for propaganda:

“And Luntz goes onto say that one of the most effective ways to make the conflict about terrorism is to refer to an obscure political document written in 1988 by a small group of ideologues, the Hamas Charter, that calls for the destruction of Israel. Even though the Hamas leadership effectively disowned the Charter a long time ago, it’s been PR gold for Israel. Luntz’s research discovered that when Americans hear the words of the Charter, Israel goes from bully to victim, and sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians dissipates. So, he says, Don’t just quote it, read it -- out loud -- again and again. And his advice has been taken up – often hysterically – by Israel’s advocates.”

https://www.mediaed.org/transcripts/The-Occupation-Of-The-American-Mind-Transcript.pdf

Just *imagine* if anything CLOSE to that was said about any other ethnic/racial group.

I just confirmed that that section is not included in the abridged version that the students want to present. You can go to 16:46 of the video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jKRwdsq-As

to conform for yourself. It would be really helpful for this discussion if you would just watch the video yourself so that I would not have to keep correcting your misinformation.

I will also note, however, that the advice that Luntz is quoted as offering as been followed assiduously. You will not find a single discussion here about Hamas in which its charter is not brought up. So, I am not sure why you find this objectionable.

Oh so you’re doubling down on the “anti-semitism is not real - it’s just hasbara propaganda.” Nice.

dp: I think you are looking for gotchas rather than acknowledging the complexities of the situation.

No, I’m not. The purpose of the documentary is to make students believe that Israel has no legitimate security concerns, Hamas is not antisemitic, and it’s all a massive Israeli mind-control effort to take over America.

This is completely inaccurate and, unfortunately, very typical of Israel's supporters. The poster is either outright lying or has not viewed the video.

I will say for the third time that the film explicitly denies that there is any brainwashing. The video does not suggest that Israel does not have legitimate security concerns, but rather argues that those concerns are frequently exaggerated and put above all other concerns (such as the security concerns of Palestinians). The video hardly discusses Hamas because Hamas is not the point of the video. Rather, the focus of the video is on pro-Israel efforts to influence American thinking about the conflict. We are seeing those efforts in this very thread, following the script outlined in the video almost perfectly.

The video is an effective illustration of how the narrative about the Israel-Palestine conflict is influenced. Because of that effectiveness, there is an effort to suppress it. The tactic used to suppress it is not legitimate criticism (of which some could certainly be made) but rather the tried and true tactic of labeling anything with which the pro-Israel crowd is uncomfortable as anti-Semitic.

Absolutely anything I say you’ll just accuse me of being hasbara.

That is pretty funny considering how many posts I've replied to without accusing anyone of that. However, if you continue to spread false information, I will point it out. The video could certainly be criticized, but for some reason its opponents insist on spreading false information about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The movie they wanted to show, Occupation of the American Mind, is very anti-semitic. It is narrated by Roger Waters who now freely wears Nazi uniforms to his concerts.

This is disturbing. How did we get here?

I just took the time to watch the video that the students want to show. You can watch it yourself here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jKRwdsq-As

It is only 49 minutes long.

Let me clear up some misconceptions. The movie is not anti-Semitic, let along "very" anti-Semitic. Does it portray the Israeli government's point of view? Of course not. Many supporters of Israel will object to parts of its content. I suspect that even some supporters of the Palestinians will quibble about parts. That's the nature of the conflict. But it is a very solid and accurate discussion of Israel's occupation and the ways in which US public opinion has been influenced.

Roger Waters has clearly overstepped the bounds of what I personally consider appropriate and can legitimately be accused of antisemitism. However, he has very little to do with this film. Most of the movie is not, in fact, narrated. Rather various speakers talk for themselves.

There is no mention of the "Jewish lobby" as stated earlier in this thread. The harshest critic of the pro-Israel lobby is a former AIPAC staffer. The movie accurately points out that most American Jews don't support Israel's hardline policies and that many of Israel's US supporters are not Jewish. One speaker explicitly said that Israel has not brainwashed Americans. While pro-Israel political influence and the impact of pro-Israel financial contributions are described, the point is made that none of the pro-Israel political activities are unusual. This actually rejects common anti-Semitic tropes about cabals of Jews secretly controlling Americans.

Ironically, toward the end of the video there is a discussion about the need to confront student activists who are not as supportive of Israel as are older Americans. In fact, many of the tactics that Israel's supporters are accused by the film of using are actually demonstrated in this thread.

Anyone interested in this discussion should take the time to watch the video and come to their own conclusions. For my part, I see no reason to prevent this film from being presented at school.

Thank you for the detailed review.

Jeff left a LOT out - namely the complete denial that Hamas is anti-semitic.

Obviously any 50 minute video about the Israel-Palestine conflict is going to leave a lot out. As I said in my review, I expect that even Palestinians would quibble about things. More than likely they would similarly argue that important aspects were ignored. But, to be clear, the film did not deny that Hamas is anti-Semitic and your accusation is untrue. Rather, the film did not address that topic. That may be a legitimate complaint, but that is not the complaint that you have articulated.

The video did describe Hamas as both a religious and political movement and described some of the terrorist events in which it had been involved.

Stop lying. The film goes into detail excusing the anti-semitic Hamas charter. And obviously just leaving that part out is a huge distortion.

I’m not against showing the doc at school but just like with Maus, the school is justified in taking steps to prevent disruption and harassment.

The version of the video that I watched, which is the version the students want to present at school, does not do that. So it is actually you who is lying and I invite everyone to view the film themselves and confirm which of us is being truthful.

I am not sure why you are comparing books that are assigned reading to a film being presented as a voluntary activity during non-classroom hours. No students are being assigned to watch the video.

Directly from the transcript - claims thay the Hamas charter calling for the slaughter of the Jews is meaningless and just exploited for propaganda:

“And Luntz goes onto say that one of the most effective ways to make the conflict about terrorism is to refer to an obscure political document written in 1988 by a small group of ideologues, the Hamas Charter, that calls for the destruction of Israel. Even though the Hamas leadership effectively disowned the Charter a long time ago, it’s been PR gold for Israel. Luntz’s research discovered that when Americans hear the words of the Charter, Israel goes from bully to victim, and sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians dissipates. So, he says, Don’t just quote it, read it -- out loud -- again and again. And his advice has been taken up – often hysterically – by Israel’s advocates.”

https://www.mediaed.org/transcripts/The-Occupation-Of-The-American-Mind-Transcript.pdf

Just *imagine* if anything CLOSE to that was said about any other ethnic/racial group.

I just confirmed that that section is not included in the abridged version that the students want to present. You can go to 16:46 of the video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jKRwdsq-As

to conform for yourself. It would be really helpful for this discussion if you would just watch the video yourself so that I would not have to keep correcting your misinformation.

I will also note, however, that the advice that Luntz is quoted as offering as been followed assiduously. You will not find a single discussion here about Hamas in which its charter is not brought up. So, I am not sure why you find this objectionable.

Oh so you’re doubling down on the “anti-semitism is not real - it’s just hasbara propaganda.” Nice.

dp: I think you are looking for gotchas rather than acknowledging the complexities of the situation.

No, I’m not. The purpose of the documentary is to make students believe that Israel has no legitimate security concerns, Hamas is not antisemitic, and it’s all a massive Israeli mind-control effort to take over America.

It's a little insulting to J-R students tobthink that a documentary could "make" students believe such simplistic hyperbole.

The documentary having that much power would--ironically enough--be some serious mind-control.

My point is that is the propaganda goal of the film. The film is as much propaganda as it claims to be dispelling it.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The movie they wanted to show, Occupation of the American Mind, is very anti-semitic. It is narrated by Roger Waters who now freely wears Nazi uniforms to his concerts.

This is disturbing. How did we get here?

I just took the time to watch the video that the students want to show. You can watch it yourself here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jKRwdsq-As

It is only 49 minutes long.

Let me clear up some misconceptions. The movie is not anti-Semitic, let along "very" anti-Semitic. Does it portray the Israeli government's point of view? Of course not. Many supporters of Israel will object to parts of its content. I suspect that even some supporters of the Palestinians will quibble about parts. That's the nature of the conflict. But it is a very solid and accurate discussion of Israel's occupation and the ways in which US public opinion has been influenced.

Roger Waters has clearly overstepped the bounds of what I personally consider appropriate and can legitimately be accused of antisemitism. However, he has very little to do with this film. Most of the movie is not, in fact, narrated. Rather various speakers talk for themselves.

There is no mention of the "Jewish lobby" as stated earlier in this thread. The harshest critic of the pro-Israel lobby is a former AIPAC staffer. The movie accurately points out that most American Jews don't support Israel's hardline policies and that many of Israel's US supporters are not Jewish. One speaker explicitly said that Israel has not brainwashed Americans. While pro-Israel political influence and the impact of pro-Israel financial contributions are described, the point is made that none of the pro-Israel political activities are unusual. This actually rejects common anti-Semitic tropes about cabals of Jews secretly controlling Americans.

Ironically, toward the end of the video there is a discussion about the need to confront student activists who are not as supportive of Israel as are older Americans. In fact, many of the tactics that Israel's supporters are accused by the film of using are actually demonstrated in this thread.

Anyone interested in this discussion should take the time to watch the video and come to their own conclusions. For my part, I see no reason to prevent this film from being presented at school.

Thank you for the detailed review.

Jeff left a LOT out - namely the complete denial that Hamas is anti-semitic.

Obviously any 50 minute video about the Israel-Palestine conflict is going to leave a lot out. As I said in my review, I expect that even Palestinians would quibble about things. More than likely they would similarly argue that important aspects were ignored. But, to be clear, the film did not deny that Hamas is anti-Semitic and your accusation is untrue. Rather, the film did not address that topic. That may be a legitimate complaint, but that is not the complaint that you have articulated.

The video did describe Hamas as both a religious and political movement and described some of the terrorist events in which it had been involved.

Stop lying. The film goes into detail excusing the anti-semitic Hamas charter. And obviously just leaving that part out is a huge distortion.

I’m not against showing the doc at school but just like with Maus, the school is justified in taking steps to prevent disruption and harassment.

The version of the video that I watched, which is the version the students want to present at school, does not do that. So it is actually you who is lying and I invite everyone to view the film themselves and confirm which of us is being truthful.

I am not sure why you are comparing books that are assigned reading to a film being presented as a voluntary activity during non-classroom hours. No students are being assigned to watch the video.

Directly from the transcript - claims thay the Hamas charter calling for the slaughter of the Jews is meaningless and just exploited for propaganda:

“And Luntz goes onto say that one of the most effective ways to make the conflict about terrorism is to refer to an obscure political document written in 1988 by a small group of ideologues, the Hamas Charter, that calls for the destruction of Israel. Even though the Hamas leadership effectively disowned the Charter a long time ago, it’s been PR gold for Israel. Luntz’s research discovered that when Americans hear the words of the Charter, Israel goes from bully to victim, and sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians dissipates. So, he says, Don’t just quote it, read it -- out loud -- again and again. And his advice has been taken up – often hysterically – by Israel’s advocates.”

https://www.mediaed.org/transcripts/The-Occupation-Of-The-American-Mind-Transcript.pdf

Just *imagine* if anything CLOSE to that was said about any other ethnic/racial group.

I just confirmed that that section is not included in the abridged version that the students want to present. You can go to 16:46 of the video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jKRwdsq-As

to conform for yourself. It would be really helpful for this discussion if you would just watch the video yourself so that I would not have to keep correcting your misinformation.

I will also note, however, that the advice that Luntz is quoted as offering as been followed assiduously. You will not find a single discussion here about Hamas in which its charter is not brought up. So, I am not sure why you find this objectionable.

Oh so you’re doubling down on the “anti-semitism is not real - it’s just hasbara propaganda.” Nice.

dp: I think you are looking for gotchas rather than acknowledging the complexities of the situation.

No, I’m not. The purpose of the documentary is to make students believe that Israel has no legitimate security concerns, Hamas is not antisemitic, and it’s all a massive Israeli mind-control effort to take over America.

This is completely inaccurate and, unfortunately, very typical of Israel's supporters. The poster is either outright lying or has not viewed the video.

I will say for the third time that the film explicitly denies that there is any brainwashing. The video does not suggest that Israel does not have legitimate security concerns, but rather argues that those concerns are frequently exaggerated and put above all other concerns (such as the security concerns of Palestinians). The video hardly discusses Hamas because Hamas is not the point of the video. Rather, the focus of the video is on pro-Israel efforts to influence American thinking about the conflict. We are seeing those efforts in this very thread, following the script outlined in the video almost perfectly.

The video is an effective illustration of how the narrative about the Israel-Palestine conflict is influenced. Because of that effectiveness, there is an effort to suppress it. The tactic used to suppress it is not legitimate criticism (of which some could certainly be made) but rather the tried and true tactic of labeling anything with which the pro-Israel crowd is uncomfortable as anti-Semitic.

Absolutely anything I say you’ll just accuse me of being hasbara.

That is pretty funny considering how many posts I've replied to without accusing anyone of that. However, if you continue to spread false information, I will point it out. The video could certainly be criticized, but for some reason its opponents insist on spreading false information about it.

The false information that it is pro-Hamas and denies that Hamas is anti-semitic?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The movie they wanted to show, Occupation of the American Mind, is very anti-semitic. It is narrated by Roger Waters who now freely wears Nazi uniforms to his concerts.

This is disturbing. How did we get here?

I just took the time to watch the video that the students want to show. You can watch it yourself here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jKRwdsq-As

It is only 49 minutes long.

Let me clear up some misconceptions. The movie is not anti-Semitic, let along "very" anti-Semitic. Does it portray the Israeli government's point of view? Of course not. Many supporters of Israel will object to parts of its content. I suspect that even some supporters of the Palestinians will quibble about parts. That's the nature of the conflict. But it is a very solid and accurate discussion of Israel's occupation and the ways in which US public opinion has been influenced.

Roger Waters has clearly overstepped the bounds of what I personally consider appropriate and can legitimately be accused of antisemitism. However, he has very little to do with this film. Most of the movie is not, in fact, narrated. Rather various speakers talk for themselves.

There is no mention of the "Jewish lobby" as stated earlier in this thread. The harshest critic of the pro-Israel lobby is a former AIPAC staffer. The movie accurately points out that most American Jews don't support Israel's hardline policies and that many of Israel's US supporters are not Jewish. One speaker explicitly said that Israel has not brainwashed Americans. While pro-Israel political influence and the impact of pro-Israel financial contributions are described, the point is made that none of the pro-Israel political activities are unusual. This actually rejects common anti-Semitic tropes about cabals of Jews secretly controlling Americans.

Ironically, toward the end of the video there is a discussion about the need to confront student activists who are not as supportive of Israel as are older Americans. In fact, many of the tactics that Israel's supporters are accused by the film of using are actually demonstrated in this thread.

Anyone interested in this discussion should take the time to watch the video and come to their own conclusions. For my part, I see no reason to prevent this film from being presented at school.

Thank you for the detailed review.

Jeff left a LOT out - namely the complete denial that Hamas is anti-semitic.

Obviously any 50 minute video about the Israel-Palestine conflict is going to leave a lot out. As I said in my review, I expect that even Palestinians would quibble about things. More than likely they would similarly argue that important aspects were ignored. But, to be clear, the film did not deny that Hamas is anti-Semitic and your accusation is untrue. Rather, the film did not address that topic. That may be a legitimate complaint, but that is not the complaint that you have articulated.

The video did describe Hamas as both a religious and political movement and described some of the terrorist events in which it had been involved.

Stop lying. The film goes into detail excusing the anti-semitic Hamas charter. And obviously just leaving that part out is a huge distortion.

I’m not against showing the doc at school but just like with Maus, the school is justified in taking steps to prevent disruption and harassment.

The version of the video that I watched, which is the version the students want to present at school, does not do that. So it is actually you who is lying and I invite everyone to view the film themselves and confirm which of us is being truthful.

I am not sure why you are comparing books that are assigned reading to a film being presented as a voluntary activity during non-classroom hours. No students are being assigned to watch the video.

Directly from the transcript - claims thay the Hamas charter calling for the slaughter of the Jews is meaningless and just exploited for propaganda:

“And Luntz goes onto say that one of the most effective ways to make the conflict about terrorism is to refer to an obscure political document written in 1988 by a small group of ideologues, the Hamas Charter, that calls for the destruction of Israel. Even though the Hamas leadership effectively disowned the Charter a long time ago, it’s been PR gold for Israel. Luntz’s research discovered that when Americans hear the words of the Charter, Israel goes from bully to victim, and sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians dissipates. So, he says, Don’t just quote it, read it -- out loud -- again and again. And his advice has been taken up – often hysterically – by Israel’s advocates.”

https://www.mediaed.org/transcripts/The-Occupation-Of-The-American-Mind-Transcript.pdf

Just *imagine* if anything CLOSE to that was said about any other ethnic/racial group.

I just confirmed that that section is not included in the abridged version that the students want to present. You can go to 16:46 of the video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jKRwdsq-As

to conform for yourself. It would be really helpful for this discussion if you would just watch the video yourself so that I would not have to keep correcting your misinformation.

I will also note, however, that the advice that Luntz is quoted as offering as been followed assiduously. You will not find a single discussion here about Hamas in which its charter is not brought up. So, I am not sure why you find this objectionable.

Oh so you’re doubling down on the “anti-semitism is not real - it’s just hasbara propaganda.” Nice.

dp: I think you are looking for gotchas rather than acknowledging the complexities of the situation.

No, I’m not. The purpose of the documentary is to make students believe that Israel has no legitimate security concerns, Hamas is not antisemitic, and it’s all a massive Israeli mind-control effort to take over America.

It's a little insulting to J-R students tobthink that a documentary could "make" students believe such simplistic hyperbole.

The documentary having that much power would--ironically enough--be some serious mind-control.

My point is that is the propaganda goal of the film. The film is as much propaganda as it claims to be dispelling it.

Yes, and?

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The movie they wanted to show, Occupation of the American Mind, is very anti-semitic. It is narrated by Roger Waters who now freely wears Nazi uniforms to his concerts.

This is disturbing. How did we get here?

I just took the time to watch the video that the students want to show. You can watch it yourself here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jKRwdsq-As

It is only 49 minutes long.

Let me clear up some misconceptions. The movie is not anti-Semitic, let along "very" anti-Semitic. Does it portray the Israeli government's point of view? Of course not. Many supporters of Israel will object to parts of its content. I suspect that even some supporters of the Palestinians will quibble about parts. That's the nature of the conflict. But it is a very solid and accurate discussion of Israel's occupation and the ways in which US public opinion has been influenced.

Roger Waters has clearly overstepped the bounds of what I personally consider appropriate and can legitimately be accused of antisemitism. However, he has very little to do with this film. Most of the movie is not, in fact, narrated. Rather various speakers talk for themselves.

There is no mention of the "Jewish lobby" as stated earlier in this thread. The harshest critic of the pro-Israel lobby is a former AIPAC staffer. The movie accurately points out that most American Jews don't support Israel's hardline policies and that many of Israel's US supporters are not Jewish. One speaker explicitly said that Israel has not brainwashed Americans. While pro-Israel political influence and the impact of pro-Israel financial contributions are described, the point is made that none of the pro-Israel political activities are unusual. This actually rejects common anti-Semitic tropes about cabals of Jews secretly controlling Americans.

Ironically, toward the end of the video there is a discussion about the need to confront student activists who are not as supportive of Israel as are older Americans. In fact, many of the tactics that Israel's supporters are accused by the film of using are actually demonstrated in this thread.

Anyone interested in this discussion should take the time to watch the video and come to their own conclusions. For my part, I see no reason to prevent this film from being presented at school.

Thank you for the detailed review.

Jeff left a LOT out - namely the complete denial that Hamas is anti-semitic.

Obviously any 50 minute video about the Israel-Palestine conflict is going to leave a lot out. As I said in my review, I expect that even Palestinians would quibble about things. More than likely they would similarly argue that important aspects were ignored. But, to be clear, the film did not deny that Hamas is anti-Semitic and your accusation is untrue. Rather, the film did not address that topic. That may be a legitimate complaint, but that is not the complaint that you have articulated.

The video did describe Hamas as both a religious and political movement and described some of the terrorist events in which it had been involved.

Stop lying. The film goes into detail excusing the anti-semitic Hamas charter. And obviously just leaving that part out is a huge distortion.

I’m not against showing the doc at school but just like with Maus, the school is justified in taking steps to prevent disruption and harassment.

The version of the video that I watched, which is the version the students want to present at school, does not do that. So it is actually you who is lying and I invite everyone to view the film themselves and confirm which of us is being truthful.

I am not sure why you are comparing books that are assigned reading to a film being presented as a voluntary activity during non-classroom hours. No students are being assigned to watch the video.

Directly from the transcript - claims thay the Hamas charter calling for the slaughter of the Jews is meaningless and just exploited for propaganda:

“And Luntz goes onto say that one of the most effective ways to make the conflict about terrorism is to refer to an obscure political document written in 1988 by a small group of ideologues, the Hamas Charter, that calls for the destruction of Israel. Even though the Hamas leadership effectively disowned the Charter a long time ago, it’s been PR gold for Israel. Luntz’s research discovered that when Americans hear the words of the Charter, Israel goes from bully to victim, and sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians dissipates. So, he says, Don’t just quote it, read it -- out loud -- again and again. And his advice has been taken up – often hysterically – by Israel’s advocates.”

https://www.mediaed.org/transcripts/The-Occupation-Of-The-American-Mind-Transcript.pdf

Just *imagine* if anything CLOSE to that was said about any other ethnic/racial group.

I just confirmed that that section is not included in the abridged version that the students want to present. You can go to 16:46 of the video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jKRwdsq-As

to conform for yourself. It would be really helpful for this discussion if you would just watch the video yourself so that I would not have to keep correcting your misinformation.

I will also note, however, that the advice that Luntz is quoted as offering as been followed assiduously. You will not find a single discussion here about Hamas in which its charter is not brought up. So, I am not sure why you find this objectionable.

Oh so you’re doubling down on the “anti-semitism is not real - it’s just hasbara propaganda.” Nice.

dp: I think you are looking for gotchas rather than acknowledging the complexities of the situation.

No, I’m not. The purpose of the documentary is to make students believe that Israel has no legitimate security concerns, Hamas is not antisemitic, and it’s all a massive Israeli mind-control effort to take over America.

This is completely inaccurate and, unfortunately, very typical of Israel's supporters. The poster is either outright lying or has not viewed the video.

I will say for the third time that the film explicitly denies that there is any brainwashing. The video does not suggest that Israel does not have legitimate security concerns, but rather argues that those concerns are frequently exaggerated and put above all other concerns (such as the security concerns of Palestinians). The video hardly discusses Hamas because Hamas is not the point of the video. Rather, the focus of the video is on pro-Israel efforts to influence American thinking about the conflict. We are seeing those efforts in this very thread, following the script outlined in the video almost perfectly.

The video is an effective illustration of how the narrative about the Israel-Palestine conflict is influenced. Because of that effectiveness, there is an effort to suppress it. The tactic used to suppress it is not legitimate criticism (of which some could certainly be made) but rather the tried and true tactic of labeling anything with which the pro-Israel crowd is uncomfortable as anti-Semitic.

Absolutely anything I say you’ll just accuse me of being hasbara.

That is pretty funny considering how many posts I've replied to without accusing anyone of that. However, if you continue to spread false information, I will point it out. The video could certainly be criticized, but for some reason its opponents insist on spreading false information about it.

The false information that it is pro-Hamas and denies that Hamas is anti-semitic?

Neither of these things is true about the video and this is just your attempt to sidetrack the discussion. Hamas is not the focus of the video which you would know if you bothered to watch it. Hamas mostly shows up when its terrorist attacks are documented. The focus of the video is on the effort to control the narrative of the conflict in the US. One strategy explained in the video is to label legitimate criticism as anti-Semitism. You are illustrating the point of the video very effectively.