Noise ordinance and first amendment rights
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Anonymous
They can't. These protestors are longing for a confrontation with Joe Citizen or Officer Krupke. Has anyone heard a statement from Bagshaw on these nuisance sirens vis a vis "first ammendment right"? |
Anonymous
Neighbors will need to file a motion via the courts for relief to require the Mayor to enforce the law on the decibel limit and nuisance noise. The MPD is not going to do anything without a court order, imho. I am sympathetic to the neighbors. But you're going to need to band together and figure out who among you is a lawyer licensed in the District. Then have that person(s) file suit on behalf of all of you as a class of litigants. It's going to take a bit of time, but this will be the only legal means for solving the issue. MPD and the Mayor won't do anything until forced by the courts because they don't want to court any controversy on this issue or attract the attention of the protestors. |
Anonymous
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I note that last February, the U.S. Supreme Court denied an appeal of a 9th Circuit ruling that horn honking is not protected under the First Amendment. My guess is that using sirens for the purpose of a protest would not be either. DC does have a law on the books that governs the use of horns. There are also regulations governing sirens. While these apply to vehicles, again I assume that these can also be applied to use by demonstrators.
Below are three responses. The first is from District 2 Commander Savoy--if you can call it a response. The second is from Councilmember Frumin. The last is from Special Operations Commander Bagshaw From Commander Savoy Hello Sir, Thank you for the email. I visit this location everyday. While I understand your frustration, this has been very challenging considering jurisdictional boundaries and laws. First amendment activities fall under our special operations division. I will forward your email to Commander Bagshaw. Tatjana Savoy Commander, Second District Metropolitan Police Department 3320 Idaho Avenue, NW Washington, DC 20016 Office: (202) 730-1901 Cell: (202) 740-4701 tatjana.savoy@dc.gov From Councilmember Frumin: Thanks Commander Bagshaw I too go by often and will again today. The situation is terrible and I can imagine has to be exasperating to those living close to it. Based on my conversations with Commander Bagshaw and others, I take it that the limitation under DC law is that First Amendment noise must be under 80 dB as heard from inside of the nearest residence. There is legislation pending that would lower that limit to 55dB in response to protests near the Chinese Embassy. That legislation has not gotten a hearing yet. I hear you that the Ninth Circuit has found a horn is not free speech. I do not know all the facts of that case and whether on could argue it applies here. Ninth Circuit precedent might not particularly if there is precedent to the contrary in the DC Circuit. I fear that it is not given Commander Bagshaw’s statement that use of a siren or bullhorn is not prohibited by law, but perhaps MPD and the OAG could look at that case to see if it forms a basis to say use of horns and sirens in the District is not protected speech or is subject to a lower threshold. In the meantime, I am curious whether current activities violate the 80 dB rule or would violate a 55 dB one if it were enacted. I bought a decibal reader this weekend and would happily come by to measure. --- Matt Frumin Ward 3 Councilmember mfrumin@dccouncil.gov From Commander Bagshaw: Good evening, Thank you for your email and understanding the issues involving First Amendment demonstrations. The Metropolitan Police Department has been working with the State Department, the United States Secret Service, other DC agencies, and both the United States Attorney’s Office and Office of Attorney General to monitor the on-going demonstration and attempt to resolve issues as they arise. The challenge, as you noted, is the protections afforded to the First Amendment activity and the laws which the Police Department are governed by and enforce. The use of the siren and bullhorn is not prohibited by law. I also note, the goal of the Metropolitan Police Department is to ensure any group can engage in their First Amendment rights safely. As demonstrations are common in the city, we routinely encounter groups in which participants play music, use bull horns and speakers, and have table and chairs set up during their activity. With ensuring the protestors can express their rights without violence, the Department also has to ensure we are uniform in the enforcement of any laws or regulations and there is no law prohibiting the length of a demonstration. As for the signs obstructing the sidewalk or intersections, this is not legal. While the signs can be up, they cannot obstruct the sidewalk as for pedestrians to not walk by or block the view of motorists at intersections. I will ensure the officers are addressing this issue when they are patrolling the area. We will continue to have a presence in the area and respond to any issue accordingly. Please feel free to reach out if you have any more questions. Commander Jason H. Bagshaw Metropolitan Police Department Homeland Security Bureau Special Operations Division (202) 671-6510 jason.bagshaw@dc.gov www.mpdc.dc.gov |
Anonymous
| Boo hiss on these protestors. Worst people ever. |
Anonymous
NP here. This is what we got from Frumin's office: I hope this finds you safe and well; I am sorry to hear that the protest has affected the enjoyment of your home, I can only imagine how frustrating the constant siren is for you and your neighbors. Unfortunately, the protests outside of the Embassy of Israel are taking place on property that is under the jurisdiction of the federal US Secret Service, which is the lead law enforcement agency monitoring the demonstrations. They are responsible for enforcing regulations pertaining to First Amendment activity outside the Embassy, and we have seen reports that Secret Service officers have arrested or removed individuals who have violated those restrictions. MPD is supporting the Secret Service through a visible presence in the area of the demonstrations and will provide additional support, if needed by the Secret Service, to respond to issues as they arise. While the Secret Service is not under the jurisdiction of the city or the Council, the Councilmember is engaging with both the Secret Service and MPD regarding the concerns that have been raised with his office and what he has observed during regular site visits to the Embassy and Ambassador’s residence, and to understand fully the legal landscape related to the protests. He will continue to be engaged and monitor the situation. I hope this is somewhat helpful, though I know not the solution to the current problem; feel free to reach out with any other questions or concerns. Best, Constituent Services Coordinator | Office of Ward 3 Councilmember Matt Frumin |
Anonymous
So how loud can they go? is there no cap? Can they make noise at 2,000 decibels? Can they cause ear drums to explode? |
Anonymous
Don't give them (or the foreign governments that fund them and wrote their yelling points) any ideas. |
Anonymous
It seems like they can do whatever they want, no matter the harm to John Q Public. I never thought our constitution worked like that. |
Anonymous
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For the people who propose simply going over there and removing the blaring-siren loudspeakers…
https://www.jta.org/2024/04/18/israel/police-arrest-son-of-prominent-dc-area-rabbi-after-alleged-altercation-with-protesters-outside-israeli-embassy This is why people who live, work, and study nearby are hesitating to approach the protest site on a quest for quiet. They’re likely to wind up in the news! And in this case, even the JTA did not describe the weeks-long siren din as context for this guy’s actions. Readers of this article who are not aware of the constant noise assault probably think this guy was just an obnoxious Zionist kook (which he may be otherwise but in this case, by “breaking their sound equipment”, he seemed to be trying to… stop… the… NOISE!!!). |
Anonymous
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If you choose to live in a Federal District next to an embassy, you lie in the bed you made.
If you want to sleep, move to a properly residential district. |
Anonymous
They were referring to the anti-war protestors, not the Zionists. |
Anonymous
What do you mean by federal district? DC has federal areas, but this is a 'properly residential district' with a smattering of embassies. The lazy AF full blast sirens laid down on the sidewalks can be heard in the many surrounding residential blocks full of homes, schools, businesses, and care facilities. If you are calling for DC to not have functional, residential neighborhoods please say so. |
Anonymous
| I drove by yesterday— the visual protest (that’s not endangering people’s eardrums or mental states) is ongoing - fair enough- but there were no wailing sirens. Was it simply a brief intermission or have they finally stopped for a longer while? |
Anonymous
Agreed 100% |
Anonymous
Wait, are you suggesting the aural holocaust isn’t as dire as NW residents are suggesting? |