College tiers?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The overwhelming majority of parents at our private school, members of our country club, neighbors who live in $2M+ houses, executives at DH’s or my companies, did not attend any of the schools in OP’s post. However, someone on my team graduated from Harvard and makes $175k 15 years out of school, which is nice, but achievable from pretty much any school.

I will never get the obsession of people like OP. No one I know IRL cares this much about where their kids go. I’m guessing OP is the first gen in her family to achieve UMC and hasn’t been exposed to enough wealthy people to see the millions of paths to success that don’t involve a “Tier 1” school.

That may all be true but I bet the people you know from your neighborhood etc still want their kids to go to prestigious schools

Very true. I only know one set of wealthy parents (not just high income) who really don't care where there kids go. I also know 5+ sets who are upset that one of both of their alma maters don't recognize a legacy admissions advantage (degrees from MIT, Amherst, and Hopkins). In my experience with older family in the Congressional CC crowd, wealthy people care about status more than money. Having a kid who went to Harvard or Stanford or even a group like Duke, Georgetown, Swarthmore, or Williams matters more than having a kid who is making bank at some huge hedge fund or tech company. The relative of a hedge fund manager might very well even try to hide or not mention what the person really does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, this list is not done very well. I hope it didn't take too much time. I'll address the top since that is all DCUM tends to really care about.
MIT and Princeton are not at top in everything in the same way as Harvard and Stanford.
Those two are in their own tier and Yale would go with MIT and Princeton.
Most of the differences between the others are too subjective to break into multiple tiers (though a few schools may need to be removed). Deciding between them based on aid and preference is entirely reasonable.

Disagree. I am very familiar with the schools you mentioned, and MIT/Stanford go together in the first tire, while the others are second tier - if we are ranking top schools, which I personally think is ridiculous - especially considering that most people on DCUm have very little, if any idea what they are talking about (and certainly no personal experience).

MIT is a Stanford peer in maybe half of their departments. For STEM focused kids, they are truly 1 and 1a but that just isn't true of any other area. Even the strongest MIT social sciences areas and the b-school are better at Stanford. The humanities departments are hardly even comparable. In the biological sciences areas, MIT is also more limited by not having a med school.

[Anonymous]

Stanford and Harvard (and almost Princeton) are unique in that you could change your major to almost anything and get a world class education from profs who are the best in their fields and with grad students who will be among the next set of leaders in that area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DCUM obsession with prestige is so exhausting. Everything must be ranked and hierarchical.

Welcome to the U.S.A.

I may be wrong, but I had assumed it was newcomers to the U.S. driving this.

There is a higher percentage of those new to the country who are misinformed about how the college attended affects outcomes, but really prestige obsession is distributed pretty well across the spectrum of Americans. It's truly sad.

yes but 'new to the country' people actually know better about how the college affects outcomes, hence they prefer real subjects such as CS, Engineering, Medical school, etc.

DP here. Those who are new tend to do slanted research and call it truth, with unwavering conviction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Rich Whites built up the cartel, but U.S.A tends to blame on the newcomers.

You are misinformed.

[Anonymous]

They types of posts are just troll nonsense. They are irrelevant and clog up the forum. Can we please just stop with this?

[Anonymous]

I'd be nervous about entry-level CS and eng jobs in 5 years if I had a kid currently in HS. They are helping to make their own early career jobs obsolete. Even now, compare the entry hiring numbers in big tech or quant firms to a few years ago. GenAI requires expensive computing power more than entry-level or mid-level coders.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DCUM obsession with prestige is so exhausting. Everything must be ranked and hierarchical.

Welcome to the U.S.A.

I may be wrong, but I had assumed it was newcomers to the U.S. driving this.

There is a higher percentage of those new to the country who are misinformed about how the college attended affects outcomes, but really prestige obsession is distributed pretty well across the spectrum of Americans. It's truly sad.

yes but 'new to the country' people actually know better about how the college affects outcomes, hence they prefer real subjects such as CS, Engineering, Medical school, etc.

DP here. Those who are new tend to do slanted research and call it truth, with unwavering conviction.

Data and information is very clear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'd be nervous about entry-level CS and eng jobs in 5 years if I had a kid currently in HS. They are helping to make their own early career jobs obsolete. Even now, compare the entry hiring numbers in big tech or quant firms to a few years ago. GenAI requires expensive computing power more than entry-level or mid-level coders.

Imagine non-CS humanities.
10X scary

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Rich Whites built up the cartel, but U.S.A tends to blame on the newcomers.

You are misinformed.

Rich Whites wish to main the cartel they built up.
They are uncomfortable with Asians/newcomers invading their space.
They want Asians/newcomers to behave like other URMs, so that they graciously share some seats and feel good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, this list is not done very well. I hope it didn't take too much time. I'll address the top since that is all DCUM tends to really care about.
MIT and Princeton are not at top in everything in the same way as Harvard and Stanford.
Those two are in their own tier and Yale would go with MIT and Princeton.
Most of the differences between the others are too subjective to break into multiple tiers (though a few schools may need to be removed). Deciding between them based on aid and preference is entirely reasonable.

Disagree. I am very familiar with the schools you mentioned, and MIT/Stanford go together in the first tire, while the others are second tier - if we are ranking top schools, which I personally think is ridiculous - especially considering that most people on DCUm have very little, if any idea what they are talking about (and certainly no personal experience).

MIT is a Stanford peer in maybe half of their departments. For STEM focused kids, they are truly 1 and 1a but that just isn't true of any other area. Even the strongest MIT social sciences areas and the b-school are better at Stanford. The humanities departments are hardly even comparable. In the biological sciences areas, MIT is also more limited by not having a med school.

Has PP not heard that Standford is also a jock factory? It's difficult to be a meathead and be a world class scholar in STEM or in humanities at the same time. Student athletes take up disproportionate amount of resources at Stanford. STEM and humanities scholars are having to fight over leftover resources at Stanford. Stanford ain't all that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, this list is not done very well. I hope it didn't take too much time. I'll address the top since that is all DCUM tends to really care about.
MIT and Princeton are not at top in everything in the same way as Harvard and Stanford.
Those two are in their own tier and Yale would go with MIT and Princeton.
Most of the differences between the others are too subjective to break into multiple tiers (though a few schools may need to be removed). Deciding between them based on aid and preference is entirely reasonable.

Disagree. I am very familiar with the schools you mentioned, and MIT/Stanford go together in the first tire, while the others are second tier - if we are ranking top schools, which I personally think is ridiculous - especially considering that most people on DCUm have very little, if any idea what they are talking about (and certainly no personal experience).

MIT is a Stanford peer in maybe half of their departments. For STEM focused kids, they are truly 1 and 1a but that just isn't true of any other area. Even the strongest MIT social sciences areas and the b-school are better at Stanford. The humanities departments are hardly even comparable. In the biological sciences areas, MIT is also more limited by not having a med school.

Has PP not heard that Standford is also a jock factory? It's difficult to be a meathead and be a world class scholar in STEM or in humanities at the same time. Student athletes take up disproportionate amount of resources at Stanford. STEM and humanities scholars are having to fight over leftover resources at Stanford. Stanford ain't all that.

+1 Stanford undergrad has its flaws. The premier undergrad school is still Princeton, it’s just so tiny and without professional schools it won’t have the recognition of Harvard/Stanford/MIT.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Tier 1 - HPSM (tops academically at everything, no special recruitment tactics needed)

Tier 2 - Caltech, UPenn, Duke, Yale, Columbia (great academically at vast majority of things, highly desirable but still employ some special recruitment tactics to compete with Tier 1)

Tier 3 - Brown, Dartmouth, UChicago, Northwestern, Johns Hopkins, Vanderbilt, Rice, Berkeley, UCLA, Georgetown, UMich, Cornell, Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, Pomona, Bowdoin, Harvey Mudd, Olin College of Engineering (great academically at many things, slightly less desirable than previous tiers and slightly worse undergrad outcomes)

Tier 4 - UVA, NYU, UNC, Georgia Tech, USC, CMU, WUSTL, Emory, Carleton, Wellesley, Wesleyan, Middlebury, Claremont McKenna, Barnard, Davidson, Grinnell…

Based on this link https://www.ivyscholars.com/2021/02/12/which-college-is-right-for-you/

Tier 1

These are schools with admissions rates below 10%. This means that of every 100 people who apply, fewer than 10 will be accepted. These schools want academic excellence and stellar extracurriculars, but those are only enough to get you into contention. MIT has reported that 70% of the students who apply are academically qualified, yet have an admission rate of 7%.

These are the most difficult schools to get into, and will be reach schools for all students, even the most qualified. This is not to say that gaining admission to these schools is impossible, merely that it should never be treated as guaranteed.

Tier 1 schools include: Stanford, Harvard, Princeton, Yale, MIT, UChicago, Caltech, Columbia, Brown, Northwestern, The University of Pennsylvania, Dartmouth, Duke, Vanderbilt, Cornell, Johns Hopkins, and Rice.

Tier 2

These schools are still highly competitive, but less so than tier 1. They generally have acceptance rates below 20%. While they have similar demands for academic excellence and extracurricular achievement, the number of students who apply to them is smaller, meaning that each qualified student has a greater chance of acceptance.

Highly qualified students may count these schools as target, and most students can count them as reach schools, though it won’t always be worth applying to them. These schools are often less well known than tier 1 schools, but are nonetheless academically strenuous for it.

Tier 2 schools include: USC, Washington University in St Louis, Tufts, Tulane, NYU, Boston University, UNC Chapel Hill, University of Michigan Ann Arbor, Notre Dame, Emory, University of Virginia, Wake Forest, UT Austin College of Natural Sciences, Boston College, Georgia Tech, William and Mary, UCLA, UC Berkeley, Georgetown, Carnegie Mellon, and University of Rochester.

Tier 3

These are still good schools, but are not as competitive for admissions, as they have more spaces offered, and fewer applicants overall. The most qualified students will be able to treat these as safety schools, while less competitive candidates should treat them as targets. Admissions rates for these schools are generally below 35%.

Tier 3 schools include: UT Austin College of Liberal Arts, Villanova, Northeastern, Brandeis, Case Western Reserve, Occidental, Washington and Lee, Babson College, Virginia Tech, UC San Diego, Lafayette College, UIUC, University of Florida, and DePauw.



---
Rankings may seem meaningless, especially when public universities are included in the mix. People might be reluctant to pay the same amount for an out-of-state public school as they would for a private school. I believe it's best to find the right school for your kid based on an overall assessment of tiers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, this list is not done very well. I hope it didn't take too much time. I'll address the top since that is all DCUM tends to really care about.
MIT and Princeton are not at top in everything in the same way as Harvard and Stanford.
Those two are in their own tier and Yale would go with MIT and Princeton.
Most of the differences between the others are too subjective to break into multiple tiers (though a few schools may need to be removed). Deciding between them based on aid and preference is entirely reasonable.

Disagree. I am very familiar with the schools you mentioned, and MIT/Stanford go together in the first tire, while the others are second tier - if we are ranking top schools, which I personally think is ridiculous - especially considering that most people on DCUm have very little, if any idea what they are talking about (and certainly no personal experience).

MIT is a Stanford peer in maybe half of their departments. For STEM focused kids, they are truly 1 and 1a but that just isn't true of any other area. Even the strongest MIT social sciences areas and the b-school are better at Stanford. The humanities departments are hardly even comparable. In the biological sciences areas, MIT is also more limited by not having a med school.

This is gold. Only on DCUM would a poster try to denigrate MIT. Hilarious.

Okay sure, whatever you say MIT grad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tier 1 - HPSM (tops academically at everything, no special recruitment tactics needed)

Tier 2 - Caltech, UPenn, Duke, Yale, Columbia (great academically at vast majority of things, highly desirable but still employ some special recruitment tactics to compete with Tier 1)

Tier 3 - Brown, Dartmouth, UChicago, Northwestern, Johns Hopkins, Vanderbilt, Rice, Berkeley, UCLA, Georgetown, UMich, Cornell, Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, Pomona, Bowdoin, Harvey Mudd, Olin College of Engineering (great academically at many things, slightly less desirable than previous tiers and slightly worse undergrad outcomes)

Tier 4 - UVA, NYU, UNC, Georgia Tech, USC, CMU, WUSTL, Emory, Carleton, Wellesley, Wesleyan, Middlebury, Claremont McKenna, Barnard, Davidson, Grinnell…

Based on this link https://www.ivyscholars.com/2021/02/12/which-college-is-right-for-you/

Tier 1

These are schools with admissions rates below 10%. This means that of every 100 people who apply, fewer than 10 will be accepted. These schools want academic excellence and stellar extracurriculars, but those are only enough to get you into contention. MIT has reported that 70% of the students who apply are academically qualified, yet have an admission rate of 7%.

These are the most difficult schools to get into, and will be reach schools for all students, even the most qualified. This is not to say that gaining admission to these schools is impossible, merely that it should never be treated as guaranteed.

Tier 1 schools include: Stanford, Harvard, Princeton, Yale, MIT, UChicago, Caltech, Columbia, Brown, Northwestern, The University of Pennsylvania, Dartmouth, Duke, Vanderbilt, Cornell, Johns Hopkins, and Rice.

Tier 2

These schools are still highly competitive, but less so than tier 1. They generally have acceptance rates below 20%. While they have similar demands for academic excellence and extracurricular achievement, the number of students who apply to them is smaller, meaning that each qualified student has a greater chance of acceptance.

Highly qualified students may count these schools as target, and most students can count them as reach schools, though it won’t always be worth applying to them. These schools are often less well known than tier 1 schools, but are nonetheless academically strenuous for it.

Tier 2 schools include: USC, Washington University in St Louis, Tufts, Tulane, NYU, Boston University, UNC Chapel Hill, University of Michigan Ann Arbor, Notre Dame, Emory, University of Virginia, Wake Forest, UT Austin College of Natural Sciences, Boston College, Georgia Tech, William and Mary, UCLA, UC Berkeley, Georgetown, Carnegie Mellon, and University of Rochester.

Tier 3

These are still good schools, but are not as competitive for admissions, as they have more spaces offered, and fewer applicants overall. The most qualified students will be able to treat these as safety schools, while less competitive candidates should treat them as targets. Admissions rates for these schools are generally below 35%.

Tier 3 schools include: UT Austin College of Liberal Arts, Villanova, Northeastern, Brandeis, Case Western Reserve, Occidental, Washington and Lee, Babson College, Virginia Tech, UC San Diego, Lafayette College, UIUC, University of Florida, and DePauw.



---
Rankings may seem meaningless, especially when public universities are included in the mix. People might be reluctant to pay the same amount for an out-of-state public school as they would for a private school. I believe it's best to find the right school for your kid based on an overall assessment of tiers.

Or even better, learn how to do your own research for what is best for your child.