NYT: "Peak College Admissions Insanity"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid went to an average school (UVA), majored in Econ (Not McIntire) went to Wharton and now makes a ton of money, it happens, just have to grind and make the most of your opportunity.

UVA hasn't been anywhere near an "average school" (regardless of what DCUM will tell you) in 50 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^sorry, couldn’t for force a student to attend a college they couldn’t *afford*. Typo.

Before you ED, you run the numbers on their website. If the final offer exceeds what you saw, you can go back to them for adjustment. If not, you are obligated to attend unless of course your situation has changed drastically. BTW, your affordability is determined by them, not you.

+1. This. Y’all have to take loans like everyone else. All y’all who had multiple kids in succession are sol too, btw.

I understand we’ll have to take loans and I’m aware the school determines what they think we can pay and I only have one kid, thank you very much. I was only confused because the article suggested that by applying ED and being accepted you had to immediately withdraw other applications and were obligated to attend before knowing what the FA might include and regardless of whether it matched the calculator.

I appreciate all the other pp’s who reassured me that the article has it wrong and my understanding was correct.

I'm going to say the article is correct in spirit, but maybe not from a legal standpoint. I have read that legally colleges cannot hold you to your ED contract, but the spirit of the ED contract is that you won't ED unless you are confident you can afford it and will attend if offered admittance. Students are definitely supposed to pull their other outstanding applications once they are admittted ED. UMiami as one example said very clearly at their admissions presentation that ED is binding and that you should not apply ED unless you know the finances will work out for you and you will attend if offered a spot. Can they hold you to this? Probably not, but if it was super easy to back out of an ED contract, everyone would apply ED. The high school college counselor has to also sign the ED contract. They will absolutely ask you to rescind all outstanding applications if your child is accepted ED. The process was not created for people to be able to compare their financial options. It definitely discriminates against people needing financial aid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The elite schools are basically a harry potter sorting hat for IB, Big Law etc.. and what they really are doing is creating a net work among the already rich/elite kids. Middle class smart kids may get in but very few have the contacts and skills to net work themselves up that high. The richer you are the less relevant your major needs to be

I don’t know about finance but that’s not true for big law. My spouse and I are both very very middle class kids who went to Ivy or similar colleges by working our butte off in HS and nailing the SAT (thank you Waldenbooks for that prep book!), getting great grades there and great lsat score to jump into the best law schools in the country then federal appellate clerkships. Biglaw is filled with people like that. The rich kids that aren’t working and just parlaying connections are not ending up at the top firms at least in DC. They may do better in regional markets like Richmond if their families are regional power brokers.

I don’t work in finance but at least some of the very well off finance folks I know are children of immigrants who I don’t think come from elite backgrounds…just super smart who work their butts off. The ricch family people I know are in commercial real estate or individual asset management.

Myth of meritocracy so that we don’t change the system. Who bought you those sat books? Who encouraged you to apply to Ivy League colleges? Who paid for your tuition? The concept of the law school is very foreign to Europeans, who instead prefer the inns of court. This is because they recognize law schools for what they really are: bourgeoisie breeding grounds.

+1, I'm a lawyer who went to a top law school and used to work in Big Law in DC and I don't buy PPs story. First I bet they were not actually "middle class." Many people like this call themselves middle class because they grew up a doctor's kid from the midwest, and that seems more middle class to them than attending Sidwell as the child of a Big Law partner. But it's not, really. The PP doesn't say whether their high school was public or private, but I'm betting parochial schools or public in a wealthy district where most parents are well-paid white collar professionals. PP also doesn't say whether they or their spouse received aid for college, since middle class families have never been able to afford the cost tuition at Ivies or top private colleges. So either their families had more money than PP is letting on or they wound up with a pile of loans, but I don't see any mention of that.

Actual middle class people go to mediocre public schools and in-state colleges, because that's what they can afford. Sometimes a very bright an ambitious middle class person will make it to an Ivy or similar, but that means loans and feeling like a total fish out of water during that experience. A very small number might wind up at Big Law firms or similar, but it's not common. At my AmLaw 50 firm in DC, the vast majority of my colleagues were the children of lawyers and doctors. Some were from extremely wealthy backgrounds but most were just from UMC white collar professional families where their dad was a very well paid, highly-educated professional and their mom was a SAHM. *That is not a middle class family.* And no, becoming an attorney or doctor when coming from a family where your parent(s) were an attorney or doctor is not the result of you being "super smart." It's a very typical outcome of kids following in parental footsteps.

Big Law firms in DC are absolutely not filled with a bunch of overachieving middle class kids who bootstrapped their way up. What an absolutely insane take.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid went to an average school (UVA), majored in Econ (Not McIntire) went to Wharton and now makes a ton of money, it happens, just have to grind and make the most of your opportunity.

UM UVA is top 25 school. Not average.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Am I totally clueless or is part of the problem also the common app? When I applied, there was no way I could have applied to 18 schools as the girl in the article unless they were all huge colleges that basically used a formula. I didn’t waste my time applying to so many schools. But maybe it’s a chicken or egg question since the acceptance rates have gotten so low, kids have to apply to reduce the risk of not being accepted anywhere.

Yes definitely. There are several schools that don't even require extra supplementals to the common app (ie Northeastern, Pitt, Clemson, etc) so you can quickly submit to multiple schools as long as you can afford the application fees.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Am I totally clueless or is part of the problem also the common app? When I applied, there was no way I could have applied to 18 schools as the girl in the article unless they were all huge colleges that basically used a formula. I didn’t waste my time applying to so many schools. But maybe it’s a chicken or egg question since the acceptance rates have gotten so low, kids have to apply to reduce the risk of not being accepted anywhere.

Sorry typed my answer too fast--you are definitely not totally clueless--the common app does make it super easy to apply to more schools. Many require additional supplemental essays, but lots don't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean forget elite schools. The insanity goes beyond the Ivy League. Flagship state schools are very, very competitive.

This is what’s scary to me. When we are telling kids with basically perfect GPAs who took all the hardest classes at their school “you might not get into Maryland” there is something wrong with the system. The top state college should be able to accept and educate our state’s top students.

Yep--same in VA. Even with three strong state schools, depending on the HS, students have to be in the top 10-15% of their class to get in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One of the many sad parts about that article is that the rich but smart kid who wasn't burdened by a need for financial aid only got into her places where her parents were legacies (Dartmouth, UVA).

She also got into Michigan and Johns Hopkins so she had solid options. So much of it when you come from a small private is who you are applying against from your same school which is why the need for 15+ applications arises.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The elite schools are basically a harry potter sorting hat for IB, Big Law etc.. and what they really are doing is creating a net work among the already rich/elite kids. Middle class smart kids may get in but very few have the contacts and skills to net work themselves up that high. The richer you are the less relevant your major needs to be

I don’t know about finance but that’s not true for big law. My spouse and I are both very very middle class kids who went to Ivy or similar colleges by working our butte off in HS and nailing the SAT (thank you Waldenbooks for that prep book!), getting great grades there and great lsat score to jump into the best law schools in the country then federal appellate clerkships. Biglaw is filled with people like that. The rich kids that aren’t working and just parlaying connections are not ending up at the top firms at least in DC. They may do better in regional markets like Richmond if their families are regional power brokers.

I don’t work in finance but at least some of the very well off finance folks I know are children of immigrants who I don’t think come from elite backgrounds…just super smart who work their butts off. The ricch family people I know are in commercial real estate or individual asset management.

Myth of meritocracy so that we don’t change the system. Who bought you those sat books? Who encouraged you to apply to Ivy League colleges? Who paid for your tuition? The concept of the law school is very foreign to Europeans, who instead prefer the inns of court. This is because they recognize law schools for what they really are: bourgeoisie breeding grounds.

+1, I'm a lawyer who went to a top law school and used to work in Big Law in DC and I don't buy PPs story. First I bet they were not actually "middle class." Many people like this call themselves middle class because they grew up a doctor's kid from the midwest, and that seems more middle class to them than attending Sidwell as the child of a Big Law partner. But it's not, really. The PP doesn't say whether their high school was public or private, but I'm betting parochial schools or public in a wealthy district where most parents are well-paid white collar professionals. PP also doesn't say whether they or their spouse received aid for college, since middle class families have never been able to afford the cost tuition at Ivies or top private colleges. So either their families had more money than PP is letting on or they wound up with a pile of loans, but I don't see any mention of that.

Actual middle class people go to mediocre public schools and in-state colleges, because that's what they can afford. Sometimes a very bright an ambitious middle class person will make it to an Ivy or similar, but that means loans and feeling like a total fish out of water during that experience. A very small number might wind up at Big Law firms or similar, but it's not common. At my AmLaw 50 firm in DC, the vast majority of my colleagues were the children of lawyers and doctors. Some were from extremely wealthy backgrounds but most were just from UMC white collar professional families where their dad was a very well paid, highly-educated professional and their mom was a SAHM. *That is not a middle class family.* And no, becoming an attorney or doctor when coming from a family where your parent(s) were an attorney or doctor is not the result of you being "super smart." It's a very typical outcome of kids following in parental footsteps.

Big Law firms in DC are absolutely not filled with a bunch of overachieving middle class kids who bootstrapped their way up. What an absolutely insane take.

Calling BS on this post. I am another lower middle class student who made it to Ivy for undergrad and law school and got significant aid/loans. Spent many years at Big Law and now in house at the highest level. Know many classmates like me from undergrad, law school and Big Law. It is not an uncommon path. Obviously lots of UMC kids make it there too, but there is not a bias against hiring kids like me and I never felt "like a fish out of water." Silly that people think because you didn't have money growing up that you are "uncomfortable" at places you get to through merit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid went to an average school (UVA), majored in Econ (Not McIntire) went to Wharton and now makes a ton of money, it happens, just have to grind and make the most of your opportunity.

In what world is UVA just "average"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid went to an average school (UVA), majored in Econ (Not McIntire) went to Wharton and now makes a ton of money, it happens, just have to grind and make the most of your opportunity.

UM UVA is top 25 school. Not average.

DP here. Depends whom you ask.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One of the many sad parts about that article is that the rich but smart kid who wasn't burdened by a need for financial aid only got into her places where her parents were legacies (Dartmouth, UVA).

She also got into Michigan and Johns Hopkins so she had solid options. So much of it when you come from a small private is who you are applying against from your same school which is why the need for 15+ applications arises.

This!!
I lived this year. And no one talks about it. Private high schools generally do well, but the competition from your peers is what leads to the crazy strategies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid went to an average school (UVA), majored in Econ (Not McIntire) went to Wharton and now makes a ton of money, it happens, just have to grind and make the most of your opportunity.

Is this satire?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought it was good and covered all bases, except one, that I continue to rant about.

Part of the reason there is so much competition for the top schools is because so-called elite employers only recruit from them. We need companies to see that there are tons of bright students everywhere. Just look at the girl profiled in the article who is clearly smart and likely has a ton of grit. She's going to Hunter College where no investment bank or MBB would ever look to hire from. Until that mindset is broken, things will not change.

It said she ended up getting a full-ride from Wesleyan at the last minute, so she is going there. Believe that is on these companies' target list.

Also, I believe that City University in NY is a big feeder of employees to Wall Street. I bet Hunter does OK too because of location. Both I assume hire kids as interns and then extend FT offers to the kids that do well.

I think you’re missing the larger point that PP was making, which was spot on.

Nope, we now have no evidence of a quality student attending Hunter. The recruiters have more data than that PP, they avoid low end schools for a reason. They expect the college admissions process to find the exceptions.

Basically this is all saying that your academic performance in high school + how well you play the college admissions game = your prospects for a great job. The prospects for these kids are in the hands of a small group of college administrators who will judge their worthiness at a time when their brains haven't even finished maturing and so much of where they are is based on factors completely out of their control (parents, family income, quality of college prep help at their school, etc.). It insane. Merit system my butt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought it was good and covered all bases, except one, that I continue to rant about.

Part of the reason there is so much competition for the top schools is because so-called elite employers only recruit from them. We need companies to see that there are tons of bright students everywhere. Just look at the girl profiled in the article who is clearly smart and likely has a ton of grit. She's going to Hunter College where no investment bank or MBB would ever look to hire from. Until that mindset is broken, things will not change.

It said she ended up getting a full-ride from Wesleyan at the last minute, so she is going there. Believe that is on these companies' target list.

Also, I believe that City University in NY is a big feeder of employees to Wall Street. I bet Hunter does OK too because of location. Both I assume hire kids as interns and then extend FT offers to the kids that do well.

I think you’re missing the larger point that PP was making, which was spot on.

Nope, we now have no evidence of a quality student attending Hunter. The recruiters have more data than that PP, they avoid low end schools for a reason. They expect the college admissions process to find the exceptions.

Basically this is all saying that your academic performance in high school + how well you play the college admissions game = your prospects for a great job. The prospects for these kids are in the hands of a small group of college administrators who will judge their worthiness at a time when their brains haven't even finished maturing and so much of where they are is based on factors completely out of their control (parents, family income, quality of college prep help at their school, etc.). It insane. Merit system my butt.

Merit is nonsense and always has been. This forum is entirely people who've done relatively well in life, making sure they extend those advantages to their offspring by whatever means necessary. No one is here to make sure someone else's more meritorious kid gets the brass ring.